Being a leader/manager/founder in a foreign country poses a unique set of challenges, especially one where you stick out as being foreign. Founder and American expat living in Mauritius, Chris Sudzak joins Leadership Coach Akua Nyame-Mensah to talk about what it’s like to work and start a business in a foreign country. He also discusses his leadership journey and his experiences with executive coaching.
Chris has worked across the African continent for several years and is now based in Mauritius. He is a founder of a new startup, CoffeeChat, a coaching platform trusted by top companies across Africa. From interns to CEOs, CoffeeChat helps democratize access to personalized coaching sessions with peers and professionals to accelerate their growth.
In this episode, you’ll learn about Chris’s leadership journey, from learning to manage large teams to becoming a founder and now looking ahead to building his own team. Chris talks about working with multiple coaches while scaling up teams in Malawi and Zambia and how those experiences inspired him to start CoffeeChat.
Listen, Follow, Review, and Rate the Open Door Conversations Podcast
Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Audible | Amazon Music | Spotify
What's Covered in this Episode About Leadership Coaching
- Chris talks about his motivation to work abroad and how he became a Country Director at a for-profit social enterprise in Malawi, One Acre Fund.
- An interest in economic development while in college led Chris to Ghana and an early career move into the international development space.
- Learn about the unique perspective Chris has as a founder working in a foreign country.
- Chris talks candidly about mistakes he made in business and how the reasons for those mistakes are blurred between being young and naive and being in a foreign culture.
- Leadership coaching had a profound effect on Chris. He and Akua talked about the benefits and the objections that some have to coaching.
- Coaching is not a punishment. Akua points out the importance of investing in coaching for good employees rather than those who aren’t performing well.
- Discover how Chris cultivated self-awareness, realizing which type of leadership role would be the best for him
- Chris explains the business he founded, CoffeeChat, a marketplace for coaching, and how it allows for exploring the different types of coaching.
- His goal is to help companies who know the value of coaching invest in a more efficient way that empowers managers to find the coach/coaching that works best for them.
Quotes from this Episode of Open Door Conversations
- "I think there is a lot of learnings around being an expat in the African market, but also being a young leader exploring and pushing the boundaries of what social enterprise can do in a in markets that are traditionally dominated either by very small NGOs, large NGOs, large corporates, Legacy government projects, and the innovation curve was a bit different than you might find in other regions around the world." - Chris Suzdak
- "I enjoy that early stage where it's a small team that I'm trying to find product market fit, and what their role as country director had evolved into was more of a people leader that was focused around making sure that the right people was getting the right information at the right time." - Chris Suzdak
- "I ended up making the decision to transition out after I got promoted. And the key takeaway from the experience in general and to help with the coach was, I enjoy that early stage where it's a small team that I'm trying to find product market fit, and what their role as country director had evolved into was more of a people leader that was focused around making sure that the right people was getting the right information at the right time." - Chris Suzdak
- "I've completely deprioritised the individual experience of them being able to book a coach and instead focus all of my effort and energy into working with HR individuals working with CEOs of companies to say, how can we make this work? What is the pricing? What is the admin dashboard, what is the process look like so that we can help you achieve your leadership development goals at your company, things like retention, things like building leadership pipeline, making sure that transitions and promotions go well." - Chris Suzdak
Get to Know this Episode's Guest
Chris Suzdak is the founder of CoffeeChat, a coaching platform that supports managers across Africa, and also is the Director of Entrepreneurship at ALX Ventures, an initiative of the African Leadership Group with an aim to develop, connect and fund African entrepreneurs creating 1 million jobs by 2030. Chris previously helped start and scale up teams across Africa in the fintech and agtech sectors.
LinkedIn: @ chrissuzdak
Get to Know the Host of the Open Door Conversations Podcast
Learn more about your host, Akua Nyame-Mensah.
Akua is a certified executive and leadership coach, recognized learning and organizational development facilitator, speaker, and former startup executive.
Since 2018, she has had the opportunity to partner with amazing organizations, from high-growth startups to multinational brands all around the world, to maximize people, performance, and profit. Outside of her coaching and corporate speaking engagements, she is a regular mentor, coach, and judge for various entrepreneurship-focused organizations.
Stay in touch with Akua Nyame-Mensah, Leadership & Culture Advisor:
Here’s the transcript for episode 66 about A Non-African Manager and Founder Working in Africa
NOTE: Please excuse any errors in this transcript; it was created using an AI tool. Akua Nyame-Mensah 0:07 Welcome to the open door podcast. My name is Akua Nyame-Mensah. I also respond to Aqua and I'm a certified executive and leadership coach recognised facilitator and former sort of leader that loves supporting reluctant buyer fighting and overwhelmed leaders. I've worked with them to help them clarify where they should focus their time and energy each and every day so that they can love themselves, love their work, and ultimately love their life. If you're looking to learn leadership information and hear different perspectives, you are in the right place. My aim in this podcast is to help you see that one of the most productive and profitable things you can do is deeply understand yourself. Understand how you show up, understand how you thrive, and allow yourself to align everything in your work in your life, and in your business to support that think of this podcast as your weekly opportunity to receive leadership support. And remember, there is no one right way to lead yourself or others. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. Let's get started. Hello, and welcome to this week's open door conversations podcast episode. I am so excited to finally release this interview. It's been a while but I think that the information in this interview is so important, especially for those of us who maybe sound different or look different, or live and work in places where we're technically immigrants. Or maybe you can use the word expat. This week, I am sharing an interview with a human being that I've had the opportunity to work with for a while. All right, he is a non African manager and founder working in Africa. So if you're interested in hearing a unique perspective on what it's like to work someplace where maybe you're not from, and maybe you obviously look like you're not from there, keep listening. Alright, so today I'm joined by Chris says, doc to talk about being a non African manager and founder working in Africa. Chris, welcome to the show. Speaker 1 2:20 Thanks, Akua. Great to be here. And yes, I am a white male American working here on the continent. And a pleasure to be here on your show. Akua Nyame-Mensah 2:31 Thank you so much for joining us. So for folks who are meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do? Speaker 1 2:39 Absolutely. So I have been working across the continent for about eight or nine years now, I have spent time in a number of different countries in West Africa and East Africa. But now find myself based in the wonderful island of Mauritius, where I've been based now for over two years, and came here to found a new startup called Coffee Chat, which I continue to run today, which is a platform for companies to scale up executive coaching and all sorts of coaching for their managers and entrepreneurs. And this was motivated by my own experience working with several different coaches, as I was scaling up different teams in places like Malawi, and Zambia. And so it's kind of been my own leadership journey that has taken me from managing large teams to going back to the solo founder route. And now I find myself returning to building teams once again, and learning things all over again. Akua Nyame-Mensah 3:43 Yes. And that's actually how we initially connected as well, I had the opportunity to work with Chris a bit on coffee jet. And I think Chris, one of the things that I found really unique about what you've been able to build at Coffee Chat is the fact that it really was inspired by your own experience trying to build teams, with people or in places that you're not necessarily from. So can you tell us how you actually ended up, you know, working in West Africa and different parts on the continent? Speaker 1 4:11 Sure. I think, you know, the stepping back, the motivation for working abroad in general, I think came from my parents. They worked abroad for a number of years. And that's what led me to being born in Europe. So my sister and I were both born in Denmark. My parents were working for a pharmaceutical company there. And we continue to travel internationally a lot growing up. And that's kind of what got me looking outwards. And when it came to college, I had a few different opportunities to travel abroad to Ghana, where I you know, dip my toes into a few different types of projects. I was studying economics at the time, and I was really fascinated by this idea of economic development, and how you can make certain decisions as businesses or as governments are as organisations to increase the rate of development for economies and ultimately, you know, generate greater happiness for human population. And so I ended up having some great experiences, big learning opportunities there in that position me for what ended up being, you know, an early career move into the quote unquote, international development space, which was quite an interesting journey in itself. And I'm happy to reflect on that a bit more. Akua Nyame-Mensah 5:36 Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit more about that. I would love to hear your reflections on working in, you know, in that space, because that's also technically what brought me back to West Africa as well. So I'm curious, you know, what did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? And why are you in such a different space now. Speaker 1 5:54 So I've always been a business and market oriented thinker and individual and funny enough, I ended up taking one of my first full time roles with an NGO. But that was because they were using a market driven approach. They were a social enterprise that would sell life improving products in an affordable and accessible way to smallholder farmers. And I thought that was a really interesting blend of doing good through business. And it also presented this really compelling opportunity to do market research, and essentially set up franchise businesses in the African market that would prepare me Give me this incredible hands on almost MBA, like experience, building new businesses that I knew would be valuable to me later on if I wanted to start my own business. And so I found myself, you know, I think I was 24 or 25, at the time, given the opportunity to train on how to run a particular business model and then sent down to a particular country, this was first Malawi, where I was to pilot and adapt a business model to find product market fit for a particular business there. And so I think you you mentioned earlier wanting to think about your how my presence as an expat in African market played out, it's sometimes hard for me to distinguish between the mistakes I made related to just being really early in my career being 25, at the time, not knowing the best practices of building a team, you know, in general, let alone in a country like Malawi. And so, you know, I definitely made lots of mistakes along the way, I think a lot of that was due to just, you know, being young, naive, having an ego thinking that it was my own business because I was in a separate country, but I was at the same time representing a wider organisation. And so I think some of when I look back at my experiences with One Acre Fund, which was that organisation, as well as Pula, which was actually a for profit, but also social enterprise, I think there is a lot of learnings around being an expat in the African market, but also being a young leader exploring and pushing the boundaries of what social enterprise can do in a in markets that are traditionally dominated either by very small NGOs, large NGOs, large corporates, Legacy government projects, and the innovation curve was a bit different than you might find. In other regions around the world. That's I think, all of those dynamics came came together to form the experience that I had in some of those countries. So lots to unpack there, I've just Akua Nyame-Mensah 8:59 been nodding my head so much. So those of you are listening, like I know, you can't see us, but I'm just nodding my head so much. And Chris, I really appreciate what you've shared and sort of your reflections on whether or not it's more of this cultural difference versus recognising that you're actually quite young in these positions. And I think you just sharing that really just resonated with me and makes me really think back to when I first started, you know, working for a high growth startup. And you know, people saying because of my accent, and where I went to school, like, Oh, you don't know about this market. And it's like, you know, what you just share there about like, Well, maybe it's just because you're new, because I was new, a new leader versus someone who maybe didn't understand. I mean, there's of course, that part as well, maybe not understanding the culture as much, but there's also this element of being new. So I really appreciate that. And thank you so much for sharing that as well. When were you actually introduced to coaching and when did you see that coaching could be a helpful tool to help you think about how to either leapfrog or you know get better within the leadership skills or even build better relationships with your teams? Speaker 1 10:03 Yeah, so coaching, you know, I was introduced to in the formal sense about 18 months into my time at One Acre Fund. So they had a programme where senior leaders as they were going through promotion plans, we're given the option to work with an external executive coach. So here I was building out this team for the first time in Malawi, and the pilot was scaling up. And so I was going from Pilot lead to more of a title change to country manager because the programme was kind of starting to materialise, and be given the resources to scale up. And so I was facing this inflection point where I decided, okay, I can either go and help the companies start up a new pilot from scratch and another country like Nigeria, or do I want to go on this journey to take this Malawi pilot to the next level, which would mean on a practical term, going from serving like 1000 farmers with 30, staff to 10s of 1000s of farmers with hundreds of staff over the coming years. And so I ended up making the decision, which with the approval of, of the senior leadership, places like Kenya and Rwanda, that I would go on this journey to grow as a leader to continue to steward the Malawi programme to a greater scale. And part of that was this attachment that I had to the team, that place that I had in the first 18 months. And then part of it was also wanting to experience something new and build new skills. And so working with a coach helped, because yes, I had great managers that could report to remotely who could get to share feedback during our weekly check ins. But there was always elements where you weren't fully comfortable of voicing or expressing or venting out some of the either insecurities that I would have as a leader or someone who could really push me to identify blind spots, or do a objective kind of review of the team. And so when I worked with the first executive coach, we worked together for six months. And she did something where she did a 360 feedback, kind of stakeholder feedback collection, where she gather feedback from all of my team members and my manager at the time. And it wasn't their traditional performance review. She was asking very targeted questions based on the initial sessions that I had with her around what did I want to change in my leadership style in my business decision making frameworks that could prepare me to grow into this manager that needed to be in this next stage of growth. And it was really helpful. And I really enjoy that conversation, there was some eye opening parts of the feedback that I got from the team indirectly. And obviously, I then chatted with them about that at a later point, and ended up then continuing to grow the programme. And at the point, I would mention that I felt like I was thriving. I had some great team members and great kind of key deputies that were growing into programme managers of their own within the team. But then as the programme continued to grow, you know, things got dicey, you know, performance wasn't always up to task in terms of hitting our targets for growth in terms of financial sustainability, you know, there would be staff issues at all levels of staff. So a lot of things that I did meet for see that a lot of things that, you know, the global teams that had emerged couldn't necessarily help me navigate that I had to grapple with those and find specific solutions to the local context. In some things I did well, and some things I didn't do. Well, all that said, I was put up for promotion, again, to be officially called the country director, and again, worked with a different coach for six months. And that was definitely a different type of coaching engagement, because I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was thriving. And so the conversation was different in that I was doing more reflection around. Okay, should I be trying harder to improve further? Or should I be exploring? A Why is this not working? And what does this mean for my career trajectory? And what I've learned about what I'm good at what I enjoy, and where do I want to go next, whether that's continuing to grow and maybe shifting some things around the team to make it better work for me? Or does it mean making a transfer within the company to a different type of role that better suited my strengths and my interests? Or did it mean leaving the company altogether and kind of finding a type of role A company that I would get excited about. And it's also one important note is, and I think a lot of people face this in a model, like a business model, for example, One Acre Fund, we would do the same thing each year. So we would sign up farmers, we would take their orders, we would deliver them their products, we would help train in plants, we would help with the harvest, and we would read collect the repayment. And then you do it all over again, obviously, at a higher level of complexity and size as we were going from the hundreds of farmers to 1000s and 10s of 1000s. But it was still, you know, the same thing again, and again. And so I ended up making the decision to transition out after I got promoted. And the key takeaway from the experience in general and to help with the coach was, I enjoy that early stage where it's a small team that I'm trying to find product market fit, and what their role as country director had evolved into was more of a people leader that was focused around making sure that the right people was getting the we're getting the right information at the right time. And that I was spending most of my time in one on one check ins with all of my key leaders, of course, I was able to get to the field and talk with customers, once every other week or so, but it still wasn't on a day to day basis, and then a quarter to quarter basis start something that was exciting to me, and I wasn't that great at it. I would much rather be leading a small team and be exploring and being agile, and be willing to explore different things. So I ended up transitioning to Pula, which is kind of a service provider of One Acre Fund. And the premise was that I would be working with a small team across Malawi and Zambia. But after after being hired into the role a few months later, they by chance needed me to hire again another, you know, temporary 200 person team across two countries. And so the founder of Pula was understanding that she knew she knew why I had made the transition. And she I think felt bad, but I honoured the commitment and kind of saw out that season it was it was interesting, because I was more tech involved, like our field teams had an Android app that they use, and I had to kind of help set up call centres as well, which was something new to me, it was definitely still very important. But I knew in my head, okay, the only way that I can get to a small team and be in my comfort zone and be able to thrive is to finally try to start my own business. And so yeah, I guess I've been chatting for a while, I can hand it back over to you if you want to dive into something specific. But Akua Nyame-Mensah 17:51 amazing that I mean, literally, I mean, just listening to you talk to this, I think this is going to be so helpful for so many people who only see their careers going towards having to be people leaders having to manage large teams. And that doesn't have to be the case. I really love how you have cultivated your self awareness, and you're very confident in being able to really dictate where you want to play. Right. So you tried it, it's maybe not for you. And I think that's absolutely amazing. And so in terms of thinking about, you know why you built Coffee Chat, that was actually going to be my next question. Can you tell us a little bit about what your thoughts were around, you know, putting this organisation together and where you are now, because as you mentioned before, you were sort of a solo entrepreneur, and then you sort of brought me on to support a bit, you went back to being a solo entrepreneur, and it sounds like you're about to scale again, which is super exciting. Speaker 1 18:44 Yeah, well, as anyone who's worked at a startup or tried to start their own company knows that there's a lot of different directions that it goes. And you have to try a bunch of different things. And the narrative of the startup and the origin story and the target customer evolves over time. But I think there is a through line in which I was able to recognise my own experience working with a few different coaches and how helpful that was for me in recognising that I happen to be the country lead of this well funded NGO. And so I had access to that external coach. And I had been helping lead different manager development programmes that were run internally at some of these companies, and they were helpful, but it definitely wasn't the same as working with an external one on one coach. And so that was the initial spark and the motivation to say how can we make this happen one on one coaching, more normalised and more prevalent and more accessible for a lot more companies. So the initial idea was to build a marketplace marketplaces were sexy at the time at least, and and seemed at least the face simple. Well to put together then I kind of dove into it. And a few things I learned was the different types of coaching that are out there, the different types of methodologies and the varying levels of how structured and how official different certifications are. So it was definitely a learning curve for me. And so I ended up going in a direction that was a bit more flexible to accommodate for a true marketplace of coaches that would provide individuals and companies a choice of different types of coaching and made it kind of an open marketplace. At first, I had a lot of great conversations with coaches, I intentionally made the business remote, because it was, you know, Pan African, and wanted to be able to be flexible on location didn't want to necessarily have to come to an office. And so I was able to just schedule lots of different calls. And this was back in 2019, early 2019, before the whole lockdown pandemic, situation that forced remote work. And what essentially happened was, I was able to put together the platform launch it, I face the common challenge of the chicken or the egg, which comes first the supply or the demand. So I had to kind of be scrappy, and convince people I knew to list themselves as coaches and then try to market them. And, you know, I learned quickly that people were very judgmental about quality of coaches and quick to judge. And so I definitely kept, you know, every every month having to adjust my strategy and my outreach strategy, who I was talking to, and where I've ended up landing, you know, over now two and a half years is kind of coming back to a value proposition that I initially had in mind anyway, which was how do I optimise my coffee chat platform offering so that companies can adopt this? So I've completely de prioritised the individual experience of them being able to book a coach and instead focus all of my effort and energy into working with HR individuals working with CEOs of companies to say, how can we make this work? What is the pricing? What is the admin dashboard, what is the process look like so that we can help you achieve your leadership development goals at your company, things like retention, things like building leadership pipeline, making sure that transitions and promotions go well. So I've been really doubling down on that. And most of most of the business does come from businesses, from Kenya, South Africa, in Mauritius. And you gotta follow and follow where the money is coming from. A lot of these companies already spend money on leadership development. And so what Coffee Chat does is just help them do it in a more efficient way. And in a way that empowers the individual managers who receive the coaching because they get to look at recommended coaches, they get to choose their coach have some Discovery sessions to make sure it's a good fit, and then, you know, schedule on their own time. So kind of ends up solving a lot of the different problems that have come across in conversations with managers and HR leaders at a lot of companies in the region. Akua Nyame-Mensah 23:29 Yes, I mean, from my end, I just wanted to say that Chris has had a lot of conversations, it's incredibly impressive to sort of see the the network he's been able to build, how the product has evolved. And maybe you could just share for the audience, what are some of the biggest objections that you hear people say, in relation to, you know, getting this type of support? Because for a lot of people, it's quite new, I would say around the world, you know, having this type of especially one on one attention support in this way, is is quite new in a lot of industries. And in a lot of spaces. Speaker 1 24:00 Well, there's there's different objectives coming from different stakeholders. There's obviously the people at a company who control the budget and have to look at, you know, scarce resources and make tough decisions on how they want to spend their training budget. And so that's, you know, conversation on its own on what is the trade offs between other types of programmes and how are you measuring the impact and the engagement of different programmes so needing to have conversations that HR people and overcome objective objections, such as the cost per person, and so that, you know, tends to gravitate around? Okay, should we include certain cohorts? How many people should we include how many sessions over what period of time? Should there be group coaching or should we stick with a one on one coaching? Obviously, most businesses don't like to have a conversation focused around price, but rather, other areas is the value from from the service that they're trying to sell. Other objections come from the individual managers themselves. So we always try to make coaching, like opt in or opt out, so that it's voluntary. I think I heard from you and I've heard from a lot of coaches who, who have worked with individuals that a company that were essentially told that they need to work with a coach. And often they just don't show up for this session. So they'll schedule it, they just don't show up. And they might say, oh, sorry, I was busy or whatever. But it's probably because they just weren't really in it. They didn't see the reason why they needed coaching, they thought it was because they were underperforming, probably somebody they disagreed with, to begin with. So part of it is just setting the mindset and the frame properly from the beginning around, is it optional? What do you want to what do you want to achieve through coaching? So it should be something that's seen as a resource rather than kind of something that's been provided as kind of a remedy. And there's also you know, for people who are not assigned coaches, an objection is, oh, I'm really busy. I have a bunch of projects coming up this quarter, maybe I'll because I have lots of people who aren't sponsored, who are sitting on their session credits and haven't used them yet. And of course, you know, if you go on maternity leave, of course, maybe it makes sense to wait. But if you are going through a really busy period, it might actually be best to start working with the coach now, because they're going to help you work through that. Because it's during those rough seas, that working with a coach can help you practice those strong behaviours, those different behaviours to get you through that stronger. You don't want to wait until after that, because then maybe you missed a chance to practice these these opportunities for practice. So yeah, I think that's that's the objection that people just don't know what it's like. And that's actually informed some of my outreach strategy, I typically approach different companies that already have used coaching, and have HR people who understand what executive style coaching is, like our CEOs that have worked with a coach, because they understand that they say, Yes, I definitely want that. I want all my managers to experience that too. And so it's an easier conversation. Akua Nyame-Mensah 27:16 Yes, well said, well said coaching is not a punishment. And I actually tell people all the time, like it doesn't really make much sense for you actually, to invest in someone you think that you might let go, because coaching is an investment. So wouldn't you invest in people that you see potential, but well said, What is next for you? What are you excited about? Speaker 1 27:35 As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking to now hire team members, again, obviously, we work together, you and I, in terms of shaping what Coffee Chat is all about engaging coaches building a community of coaches and thinking about how to create the values and align on where coaching fits in, in this in this region and in this market. But I never had any full time staff. And I think that was a reaction to me wanting to not make the same mistakes as I did in these other companies where I felt looking back that I hired too many people too quickly, because I just, you know, there was no question. They said, Oh, you need a couple more HR people. And now I have a person HR team, there's like way too much because it's like you hire like more people and more problems instead of building a lean, lean system that can more easily scale. And so I was kind of still dealing with some scars related to that. And so I want it to be fully focused on okay, how can I scale this as far as possible without needing to bring on people. And when I say I don't have full time staff, I work with different partners who played some of those roles that maybe a team would traditionally play and so but I find myself now where if I want to really start to scale and move from dozens of company clients to hundreds, I really can't do that alone. Plus, you know, investors are not going to invest in a one person company. So that's also something I need to grapple with in in show that they're not just investing in a solo founder, they're investing in a strong team, and any good founder can recruit and convince people to join the movement that are starting. And so I've started to interview for two different roles ahead of growth and a Head of Customer Success has spoken to a number of really interesting people who, funnily enough have worked at companies that have maybe raised their series A or Series B, who got in at the ground level and have worked themselves up but they're still not in that, you know, top C suite level and they they have seen that thrill and how rewarding it is to grow so rapidly, and now they're looking at their career and be like okay, maybe I need to join a startup and As employee number two or three, and then I can be those, you know, C suite people who, you know, when the company goes public or whatever, that you are the one having lots of team members and getting lots of rewards from that. So, yeah, kind of full circle now, you know, looking to bring on some team members and obviously, increase in sales and clients. In the past year, I've also made that possible. And so yeah, excited to make sure that I am intentional about how I bring on team members and make sure that I strike the right balance this time. Akua Nyame-Mensah 30:38 Once again, I mean, the only word that comes to mind is amazing. This has been absolutely great. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective sharing a bit about your experience. I think so many people are going to really resonate with your story. And yeah, just find something really interesting. They can take away from this conversation. If people are interested in learning a little bit more about you or coffee chats. Where can they do that? Speaker 1 31:01 Yeah, I'm most active on LinkedIn. So you can find me just searching my name. Chris says that at Susie da K, the only one there at that name. And you can also visit coffee chats website, www dot coffee chat.co. And always happy to chat with anyone who's interested in coaching or just interested in chatting about entrepreneurship and startups as well. Akua Nyame-Mensah 31:28 Perfect. We will make sure that we link all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today. Chris Speaker 1 31:33 basically has been great to to reflect actively with you today. Akua Nyame-Mensah 31:37 Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to today's episode. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please share it with your friends. We can continue this conversation on social media the links to my socials so that is LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter. You can find them in the show notes. If you tagged me in a story and include the hashtag hashtag ask Akua I will share a special little gift with you. Thank you so much once again for your time and I cannot wait to share my next episode with you stay safe and sane.