EP 26 // Building Irresistible Products & Relationships with Josh Hayman of Interact Quiz Maker

NOTE: Please excuse any errors in this transcript; it was created using an AI tool. Akua Nyame-Mensah 0:07 Welcome to the open door podcast. My name is Akua Nyame-Mensah Chaos respond to Aqua. And yeah, I'm a certified executive and leadership coach recognised facilitator and former sort of leader that loves supporting reluctant buyer fighting and overwhelmed leaders. I've worked with them to help them clarify where they should focus their time, and energy each and every day so that they can love themselves, love their work, and ultimately love their life. If you're looking to learn leadership information and hear different perspectives, you are in the right place. My aim in this podcast is to help you see that one of the most productive and profitable things you can do is deeply understand yourself. Understand how you show up, understand how you thrive, and allow yourself to align everything in your work in your life, and in your business to support that, think of this podcast as your weekly opportunity to receive leadership support. And remember, there is no one right way to lead yourself or others. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. Let's get started. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the open door conversations podcast. As always, I am super excited to introduce my interview, ie the human being I'm interviewing the CEO, this amazing founder who has such an interesting background. And what he does for a living is generate business for other businesses. So we're gonna dive deep into how he started his business, talking a bit about how he even builds his team, how he thinks about solving a real problem. So if you are looking for some guidance on how to really think about building your team, working even with your co founders, or trying to build a community around some sort of software product, this is the episode for you. Without further ado, let's get into the episode. Alright, so I am super, super excited today because I'm being joined by Josh. And Josh is an amazing entrepreneur who's built, I think, an incredible product for a very unique market. And we're gonna be talking about irresistible products today. So Josh, welcome to the show. Unknown Speaker 2:37 Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Akua Nyame-Mensah 2:40 Yeah. So for folks who are meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do? Speaker 1 2:46 Yeah. Who am I that's always a such an existential question. someone's like, who are you? And you're like, I don't know. So I'll start with the easier one, which is what I do. I started a company called interact about 10 years ago with a couple of friends. It's now become a bootstrap company that does several million in annual revenue. And we have 10, full time employees all around the world, and more contractors who are involved with the initiative in lots of different places. So it's very exciting these days. In terms of who I am, I would say that I'm a typical tech founder, I don't really fit the mould of like, you know, high flying charismatic, I'm much more quiet or like to write, I like to go on long hikes in the woods. I like to just hang out and spend time with people. So that's more of a flavour of who I am and what I do. Akua Nyame-Mensah 3:43 I love that. Thanks so much for sharing. Can you tell us a bit about the story of how you actually keen to co found interact? And I'm really excited about this, because actually, I saw on your LinkedIn posts, you were talking a bit about some of the things that maybe didn't go as well prior to starting interact. So yeah, just share a bit more about your story. Speaker 1 4:02 Yeah. So it really starts seeing, you know, like 15 years ago, when I was in high school, so I was 1516 years old, grew up really poor. I was trying to get a job. It was like the biggest recession ever in 2008, the financial collapse of pretty much everywhere. So I could not get a job and I had to go and make one. So I did. And that's where it all started. I started out with doing the only thing I knew how to do which was mow lawns, going flyering, door to door posting on Craigslist, stuff like that. That morphed into in a very long, roundabout way buying and selling electronics, which I did for a few years. And then I met my co founders of interacting college and all three of us had a somewhat entrepreneurial background. So we each brought in our own unique skill sets. The three of us came together, built, interact and then you You know, it was not a smooth road in any way from then. But yeah, really all started, you know, 15 years ago, I've never had a corporate job. I've never worked anywhere. So, yeah. Akua Nyame-Mensah 5:13 Oh, that is so cool. Can you share a little bit about what it was like to have co founders? How many co founders did you have? And how did you sort of, you know, maintain that relationship and really build this product into what it is today? Speaker 1 5:27 Yeah, so we had three to start with. And it was three of us. In college, we had a programmer, myself, who just did a bunch of random stuff, and a designer. And there's a funny story of how we started working together, because it was literally like one of those startup competitions. And I called the only programmer that I knew, which is my co founder, Matt, I call 9:10pm. I was like, Yo, do you wanna go do this thing? And he's like, Yeah, I'm down. And then we did it. And now it's been 12 years since we're best friends. And we hang out all the time and started a company together. And then Ethan, our third co founder, is also funny story of how we decided to build interact. When we were graduating college at this point, we just all had pizza together. And I was like, Yo, you guys want to do this after school? And they were like, sure, yeah. So that was how it began. And, you know, I tell people that story, and they're like, that's insane. Like, I could never just like jump in and do something. And I'd certainly do not think that's the only way you have to do it. Like it is very much a stereotype that all entrepreneurs are these crazy risk takers, and you can't be more measured about it. I've interviewed people on the Interact podcast, who worked on something for seven years on the side, while holding down a full time job the entire time. So that is not the only way to do it. And I don't want to uphold the stereotype that every founder is this crazy, eccentric person. But that is our story. And you know, it was a lot of fun, but also not the easiest route because jumping in like that, also keeping it bootstrapped. We didn't have a lot of money to go around, we actually had to part ways with the designer after a couple of years, simply because we didn't need a full time designer. And we still don't have a full time designer 10 years later. So that was tough, because we are all close friends. And thankfully, we are still all close friends and hang out. So you know, that was positive. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very close relationship, like you're not only working together, but you are going through just some serious, scary stuff. And it only gets scarier, the more success you have, because now, other people are involved in, there's lots of different opinions to way and you and your co founder, everything rolls back to you in a lot of ways. And so yeah, it's very much a relationship that takes active work. It's not just something like, we're chill and hang out. And we're friends, you do have to work on the relationship. And just like any relationship, Akua Nyame-Mensah 7:57 I love that. And I think that's a really great segue to maybe start thinking or talking a bit more about your team. So I think I saw that you have about 10 team members, which is amazing for the amount of money you guys make every single year. Can you tell us a little bit about how you manage that remote team? And sort of what is it that allows you guys to be so efficient and work with so many coaches and service providers around the world? Yeah, I think Speaker 1 8:24 the really oversimplified answer to that question is that everyone on our team plays to their strengths. So like, for me, my strength is not in details, literally, I will get on a meeting and we'll pull up a spreadsheet and I just like fall asleep. Exactly, almost. It's, it's rough. It's a you know, the energy bar, if if if life is a video game, energy bar just starts to shrink. As soon as details come up. Thankfully, my co founder is slightly more detail oriented. And then our COO is very good with details and very good with, you know, turning things into systems and scaling them up. So at least on the executive level, that's kind of the vibe that we have. And we do a lot of work on the mental side with the three of us and with our entire team. But you know, just getting to know each other and understanding how we work and what people's strengths are. And so I think that's what allows us to do a lot with a small team is that each person is doing what they're really good at. And then we're pretty honest with each other when we're not good at something. And we don't try to make ourselves do tasks and do parts of the business that we're not good at. And so then everybody just gets more done. It feels better about their work to do feel like doing something that you know how to do well, rather than slogging through mud trying to figure out things or like for me like doing a bunch of details and it's like I can do this but it's not what I'm really good at. Akua Nyame-Mensah 9:56 Yeah, no, I love that. And I think you know, reminding people even if they are blue strapping or even if they are sort of early stage that they can still think about how to partner and find people who can maybe complement them, as opposed to just trying to get through it right, in terms of what you're describing. So I think so many people feel like, oh, I have to do it, or I have to do it first before I find somebody else. Speaker 1 10:16 Yeah, exactly. I think I mean, that opens up a whole other can of worms, which is, where do you where do you delegate? And where do you not delegate? That is a constant work in process that I still don't feel like I'm an expert at even after 10 years of trial and error. But yeah, I think complement is a good word. Because I think that is very much part of how our team works to is that somebody's really good at something, they'll jump in and take part of a project from somebody else, so that it goes faster, and it makes everybody better. And, you know, I think the thing that really exemplifies our team is an ego lessness. So I love that this sense of like, Oh, that's my project. Why are you jumping in? It's like, no, like, you're better at this. So can you help me with this part? And I'll help you with this part on your project. And then everybody gets more done? Akua Nyame-Mensah 11:05 Where do you think that comes from? This idea of recognising that hey, like, asking for help, is not a bad thing. Right? This, you know, being able to be vulnerable, and connect that way with their you know, their colleagues? Speaker 1 11:18 That's a good question. You know, I'm reading this really great book by Eckhart Tolle. The Power of Now, which I will give a shameless plug, even though I have no connection to the person. But it does talk a lot about ego and what that means. And ego was really just defined by looking out for your own interests, and only your own interests. And I think on our team, you know, we've been fortunate to bring people in who understand the value of promoting other people, and not just always being like, well, what's my thing? And how do I make sure that I'm doing the best, you know, in my world? Like, how can we work together so that all boats rise at the same time? And I think, you know, there's no real easy answer to like, where that comes from, per se. Like, I think everyone takes a different path towards enlightenment, if you want to go all the way into the Power of Now world. But you know, everybody takes a different journey to get there, right. And, but I think when you see people who are there, it's immediately obvious. And since we've established a culture, even with our 10 people that that is set up like that, when people come into our world, they either jump on board and do the same thing, or it's not even like we have to, you know, push people away, it just doesn't resonate, they don't feel connected, they don't feel like this is where they belong. And so it's self perpetuating after a while. Akua Nyame-Mensah 12:50 I love that. Yeah, building a culture so strong and a way of doing so strong that you know, it's very self selected, right? You get in there like, Hmm, maybe not this time. Might be someplace else. For me, I think. I think that's absolutely amazing. And I think one thing, I just realised that we actually never really talked about what your product is, how did you build this online? You know, Quiz Builder? Where did it come from? How did you know this was something that people would actually be ready and willing to invest in? Speaker 1 13:19 Yeah, that's a good question. Because it came from myself and my co founders, we used to take on web design projects in college just to pay the bills and make some money on the side. So we would work with a doctor or service provider, whoever, right about building out their website and helping them grow. And the metric they all cared about was their email subscribers, I think it's kind of a mix of vanity. And also like, it actually is important to growing your business to have email subscribers. So we saw that, right. So we build these entire websites, people would opt in from time to time, but then we built a site that had a quiz on it. And the options were just off the charts. It was really, really good. And so that's another funny story, because we're like, none of us knew how to build a platform from making a quiz. We made the first one from scratch. But then Ethan, our third co founder was like, let's make a platform. And then we were like, okay, and then we did it. So that's how that came about. And we took a very long time to build it. I think that question of How did you know people would pay for it, we were just kind of laughing because we tried to get clients to come on initially. So we would go through something like Upwork or another platform and look for people who wanted a quiz to be built and then build it for them semi custom semi on our platform. And we would charge like 150 bucks and then spend like 30 hours which is not a good pay rate. And then like the first one wasn't even happy with it and requested a refund. So no one actually really wanted to pay for it. And it really took like five years after the fact I'll name the company for there to be any sort of repeatable demand for the product. So this is really slow at the beginning, Akua Nyame-Mensah 15:08 what kept you guys going forward? And like, you know what, yeah, what motivated you to continue to do this, Speaker 1 15:15 um, mix the things, a little bit of arrogance of like, we know how to do this. And we're just going to keep going a little bit of trying to prove ourselves, like we committed to this, everyone knows we're doing it, we can't give up now. And then I think the biggest piece of the pie, though, is actually just that the people who did use it and did not adopted had just amazing success. It was off the charts, just like we had seen with our quiz. And so we were like, This doesn't make sense. The no one's using this because when people do use it, it works incredibly well. But we can't get people to use it. So this is weird. Ether to be in this liminal space, like where it's not not working, but it's also not working. So what do you do, and we kind of just printed it out for, you know, all intents and purposes, we just kept going. And then eventually, luckily, because I also know people were they kept going through that period, and then never changed. So it was really just luck and timing that allowed us to turn a corner. Akua Nyame-Mensah 16:21 Was there anything in particular that changed? Was it like people had more access to the Internet people? You know, was there like just a crazy number of testimonials? Where people were like, converting faster? Yeah. What was that tipping point? Speaker 1 16:35 You know, there was a variety of factors. I think one of them is just the, you know, there's some good books about this, like Malcolm Gladwell is book about this, I forget what it's called. And then another book called Crossing the Chasm that are kind of about starting movements, which exactly what we're doing. But because our product is so new, and it's still new, even after a decade, it's still like, Oh, this is a new strategy. That's what most people say, when they first start using it, right? Because it's new, it takes just a monumental amount of people to personally buy into it. And that only happens one at a time, like talking to people. And so everyone on our team still does, this is actually one of the kind of superpowers of our teams that every single person on our team talks to customers, at least on a weekly basis. And so the biggest thing that caused it to kind of tip over was, we had just personally talked to probably 10,000 people, after five years across our team. And it just started to spread a little bit more naturally, after having all those conversations. And now we get to talk to so many more people, because we have our own team. It's not just a few of us. So I think that's probably the biggest thing is just we'd had enough opportunities to just personally connect with customers and clients who then connect with like one or two other people and then just starts to grow. Yeah, Akua Nyame-Mensah 18:09 I mean, that's one of the reasons why I actually am able to speak to you today because you allow yourself to be accessible. And I find that there are a lot of other CEOs or founders that wouldn't do that. Right. In their minds, like this is not, you know, potentially for them. They don't feel like it's the best use of their time. So, you know, I'm just really curious, like, how did you get to that point where you're like, well, actually, I can make this work. And it makes sense for my business model. And it makes sense for where we're going in our business as well. Speaker 1 18:36 That's a good question, too, because I used to, and I would, I would imagine that folks do that, in part because they might burn out, which is what I did. So you know, I used to be like, Hey, I see the value of talking to people. I'll talk to 12 people a day. And I was so so tired. After you know, a couple of years of doing that, I was just so incredibly burnt out. And I ended up having to take a sabbatical for like a year and a half, before I finally was able to get back on my feet. Because it's almost like mental adrenal fatigue, where it's like, we work out way too much, your body can be depleted for a very long time, in the same way your mental energy can be depleted for a very long time. And so for me, it's really about boundary setting where I do do this, but maximum two to three hours a day. And I can't do more than that. And if I do more than that, then I'll eventually start to peter out. And I have a very, you know, my partner makes fun of me for this. But I have a very strict routine in terms of how I spend the rest of my time, which involves like waking up at the same time and going on lots of walks and spending time with people and getting replenished on my own so that I can then show up and do this every day. Akua Nyame-Mensah 19:58 That's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. as much for sharing that, and I think a lot of people can can definitely learn from that and see that it is possible to do some of these things maybe that seem out of the ordinary for a CEO or founder, but just making sure that you're, you're really putting boundaries around it so that you can recover. Yeah. And you can really Yeah, revitalise yourself to be able to show up. And so can you talk a little bit about how, you know, your customers maybe have looked over the last few years? From my perspective, it seems like you guys have a lot of coaches, but I'm just really curious, who are the people who've really bought into what you're doing and talk a little bit more about this community that you're building? Speaker 1 20:37 Yeah, that's another good question. And, you know, it's been a very long journey on that one, because we started with just whoever wants to sign up and use this, this is great. So we have worked with just the strangest variety of people from like, you know, the world's biggest companies down to the most niche nonprofits to just brands to do with the most strange things. But over time, what we found was that coaches and digital product creators are on the forefront of using technology to sell and grow their brands. In a way that's much less complex. Even though you know, if you're a coach, you're like, This is not less complex, this is very complicated. But compared to you know, a have a large e commerce brand, the levels of complexity is like one versus 50, literally, because we've tried working with very large companies, and just so much complexity goes into it. So we coaches and digital product creators, the path to profitability, for lack of a better term is very short in comparison, and also very direct. And so our product with the quiz and the way that it functions to get people into your world immediately leads to, you know, money. And that's why it's been most effective. And that's why coaches and course creators specifically have really gravitated towards it. And that's who we started with. And then with the community piece, that's really piggybacking off of what we found with the relationships that I was mentioning with what changed in terms of starting to grow, there really is just about connecting and adding value to people's lives as a whole, not just with the product, because you know, what most people tell us is that they need more time. And what does that time for it's like, for living your life. And so what we aim to do, both with our tool and with our community is help people unlock bits of time. So do things more efficiently, not get stuck on a technical issue, have someone to reach out to if they need design help, or branding, help, or strategy, help, whatever. And so we're building this community that has all those resources in one place, and is also very highly vetted. So that everybody who's in there, you know, kind of follows the same mantra of like, giving more than you take, and we're all here to help each other succeed. No one is trying to push each other to the side so they can get ahead. And that's what we're doing. Akua Nyame-Mensah 23:15 I love it. I love it. As a member, somewhat of the community, I've you know, been a massive fan. You know, after having a conversation with you, I love the coaching that I had the opportunity to be a part of in relation to my quiz. So thank you so much for building that and sort of enabling something that's a bit different from what we see from a lot of other like platforms and you know, online services. Hello, Akua. Here, I'm just jumping in really quickly to let you know that I'm really excited to announce that this week, I'm doing a five day leadership training, it's absolutely free, I'm going to make sure that I put links in the show notes. But I think it's going to be a really great way for you to think about how you can make the most of your 2022. Over the last two years, all of us have had to deal with things that we've never dealt with before. And so over the five days of this week, I will be talking about some of the top leadership skills and trends that you definitely need to keep in mind, whether you have a remote team, a hybrid team, a team that keeps going in and out of the office, because of the situation that we're currently at, we're gonna be talking about communication, we're gonna be talking about how to make sure that you're making the most of your time, we're also going to be talking about how to do secession planning, and really make sure that you're securing your future and you're thinking about the human beings that are working for you. So I would love for you to join me All right, everything will be live on my social media channels, make sure that you register so that you get the replays or access to the replays and also the exclusive workbook that I've built just for this five day training. As always, thank you so much for taking the time to listen, and I hope that you enjoy the rest of your day and have an amazing start to your 2022 Maybe what's the last question? What are you excited about next? Speaker 1 25:07 That is a another good question. I just keep saying it's good question, because all your questions are good questions. Akua Nyame-Mensah 25:13 I'll take it. Speaker 1 25:14 What Yeah, what I'm excited about next, I'm very excited about building a community and doing things differently. Like you mentioned, it is very different. But I personally haven't I have very strong opinions about things. But this is my strong opinion about the future of software is that software is going to lose value over time, because I think people are going to realise that when you don't use software, it's not useful. And so, right now, there's a lot of money to be made in software, because people buy it because they think they need it. But the actual usage ratio rates on software are shockingly low. Like, you can hear some stuff that like, you know, public statements from big companies, their average users hardly use the product. And so we kind of want to get ahead of that, you know, shrinking back by having a community where everybody who pays for our product, uses the product, and uses it to its fullest potential. And that's where the coaching that you mentioned, you know, that we put a tonne of resources into that, and we have some amazing people working on it, the community as well. So I'm really just excited to prove out that hypothesis, which is really it's as simple complex as basically like, you know, people helping people is going to win in the long run. But it'll take some time to develop. And so yeah, I'm excited to see how that grows and see how, you know, with, with everybody aiming to be helpful to each other, what actually happens? And, you know, I think I think there'll be very many good things to come. Akua Nyame-Mensah 26:47 Definitely. And how about you as Josh, the human being, what are you excited about next? Speaker 1 26:52 Yeah, I'm excited, I have started writing a lot, we were kind of chatting about that before we hit record, but started writing and posting on LinkedIn. And you're just sharing more life lessons, business lessons, life slash business lessons. So I like I said at the top, I do really enjoy writing, that's exciting. To me, I like the process of writing. Because the way I write is by talking to people and then distilling the stories down into, you know, written content. So that's all very exciting to me, just because of the people that I get to meet and the work that I get to do. And then as that translates back into interact, like just, it's all circular. And so the input that everybody on our team has to all that process. That's all very exciting to me. So yeah, I'm excited to just be kind of getting more connected and writing. Amazing. Akua Nyame-Mensah 27:45 Thank you so much, Josh, for your time, sharing your thoughts, sharing a bit more about your background. I'm sure many people listening to this have probably learned one or two things, and they're excited to take it away and hopefully implement it. Where can people find out a bit more about what you do online? Speaker 1 28:03 Yeah, so like I mentioned, I'm more active on LinkedIn these days. So use look me up Josh Hanim. I think I'm the only joshing him in the world. So I will show up. Then, in terms of interacts, you can go to try interact.com. And there's an option to join our community on there, which is definitely the way to get plugged in, because like we've kind of chatted about, there's a lot going on there. So I would highly recommend. Akua Nyame-Mensah 28:28 Amazing. We'll make sure that we put links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today, Josh. I really appreciate it. Unknown Speaker 28:35 Thank you. Akua Nyame-Mensah 28:37 Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to today's episode. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please share it with your friends. We can continue this conversation on social media the links to my socials so that is LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter. You can find them in the show notes. If you tagged me in a story and include the hashtag hashtag ask Akua I will share a special little gift with you. Thank you so much once again for your time and I cannot wait to share my next episode with you stay safe and sane.